On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Stephanie R Noble
stephanierndos@hotmail.com> wrote to the editor at positiveatheism.org:
Dear Sir/Madame;
In regards to your reply on your website to: 'Don't Promote
Lincoln as an Atheist - Judith Prince' ~ at the very end or your reply,
you state to Ms. Prince the following (copied/pasted below);
"First, is it safe to assume that you believe everything that every
politician ever said in a speech? If so, then I think you probably deserve
the punishment reserved for people who do that! which is, You get to
live the rest of your life being someone who would believe the lies of a
politician! What do you think about all of Abraham Lincoln's private
letters? Do they tell us anything about his religious views, or can
these be clearly and adequately discerned from the public speeches and
pronouncements he gave, utterances that were written by another man?"
I wanted to ask a question in this regards, - since you refer to 'all' of Abraham Lincoln's private letters – why is it that when I searched your
site, I was never able to locate any letters to Eliza Gurney? In fact, see below – which is indeed a private letter from Abraham Lincoln to Eliza Gurney. I would also like to point out that 'Abraham Lincoln loved to read the Bible, but was never an admitted Christian. In his younger days, he was described by friends and associates as either an infidel or an atheist, but as he grew older his views moderated, and he came to believe in a providential God.' See http://www.geocities.com/peterroberts.geo/Relig-Politics/ALincoln.html. Thus, if Lincoln believed in a 'providential God', - how then could he have
been an atheist? Isn't an atheist someone whom does not believe in God, PERIOD?!
Below, (I have copied/pasted) - which is an excerpt of a letter he, (Lincoln) wrote to Eliza P. Gurney in 1864 - found online at a Fact Site about Lincoln, which neither promotes Lincoln's belief in God, or that he was an 'atheist' – see http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/gurney.htm
Letter to Eliza Gurney
Just as Abraham Lincoln's letter suggests, Eliza Gurney, the widow of the English Quaker Joseph J. Gurney, visited President Lincoln about two years earlier, assuring him of her prayers during a difficult period in the Civil War. About this time, Lincoln also had written an unpublished memorandum relating the war to the will of God. His 1864 reply to Mrs. Gurney reveals a continuing thread of interest in that topic, which would reach its height in his Second Inaugural Address the next spring.
Executive Mansion,
Washington, September 4, 1864.
Eliza P. Gurney.
My esteemed friend.
I have not forgotten--probably never shall forget--the very impressive
occasion when yourself and friends visited me on a Sabbath forenoon two
years ago. Nor has your kind letter, written nearly a year later, ever
been forgotten. In all, it has been your purpose to strengthen my reliance on
God. I am much indebted to the good Christian people of the country for
their constant prayers and consolations; and to no one of them, more than to yourself. The purposes of the Almighty are perfect, and must prevail, though we erring mortals may fail to accurately perceive them in advance. We hoped for a happy termination of this terrible war long before this; but
God knows best, and has ruled otherwise. We shall yet acknowledge His wisdom and our own error therein. Meanwhile, we must work earnestly in the best
light He gives us, trusting that so working still conduces to the great
ends He ordains. Surely He intends some great good to follow this mighty
convulsion, which no mortal could make, and no mortal could stay.
Your people--the Friends--have had, and are having, a very great trial.
On principle, and faith, opposed to both war and oppression, they can only
practically oppose oppression by war. In this hard dilemma, some have
chosen one horn, and some the other. For those appealing to me on
conscientious grounds, I have done, and shall do, the best I could and
can, in my own conscience, under my oath to the law. That you believe this I
doubt not; and believing it, I shall still receive, for our country and
myself, your earnest prayers to our Father in heaven.
Your sincere friend
A. Lincoln.
________________________________
Source: The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, edited by Roy P. Basler.
Respectfully,
Stephanie R. Noble
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:17:27 -0700
>> From: positiveatheism@gmail.com
>> To: stephanierndos@hotmail.com
>> Subject: Re: 'Don't Promote Lincoln as an Atheist - Judith Prince' -
>> Question
>> You will need to start being more honest than this if you wish for us to take you seriously. I knew that I did not underline any words, the underscore being improper grammar, but I checked anyway. The fact that this is not the only change you made to the text has earned what should have been an interesting conversation a flight to the round file.
Cliff Walker
PositiveAtheism.org
Democracy is not an easy
form of government, because
it is never final; it is a living,
changing organism, with a
continuous shifting and adjusting
freedom and general order.
-- Ilka Chase, "Past Imperfect"
_______________________________________________________
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Stephanie Noble
<stephanierndos@hotmail.com> wrote:
Do you answer questions, or - do you just reply with confusing rhetoric?
My question was regarding that you refer to 'all of Lincolns' private
letters' in your response to Ms. Prince - yet, when I searched your site, I
found no letters from Eliza Gurney - as I pointed out in my question. Where
was I 'dishonest'? - Stephanie R. Noble
On Thurs, Aug 21, 2008 at 10:52 am, Cliff Walker wrote –
I am happy to answer honest questions. Dishonest questions (trick questions; baiting attempts; grilling us about your own misquotes of our statements; etc) get sent down to the proverbial null terminal without explanation. Since you clearly know what you are doing, to go over it and explain to you what you already know would be pedantic.
Good bye.
Cliff Walker
PositiveAtheism.org
. . . ... It's often said that because
. . . evolution happened in the past
. . . and we didn't see it happen,
. . . there is no direct evidence for it.
That, of course, is nonsense.
. . . It's rather like a detective coming
. . . on the scene of a crime, obviously
. . . after the crime has been committed,
. . . and working out what must have
. . . happened by looking at the clues
. . . that remain....
. . . . . . -- Richard Dawkins,
Interview by Gordy Slack
(April 28, 2005)
*This is obviously a very sarcastic reply to myself from Mr. Walker & please note: the meaning of the word, ‘Pedantic’: one who makes a show of knowledge - in other words, Mr. Walker admits that he is an arrogant ‘intellectual’ – who, by the way - is avoiding the true question I posted originally on his site - positiveatheism.org. By the way, in all honesty – I did not make ANY changes to Mr. Walkers’ verbiage which I copied/pasted, other than to bold font & underline the crux of my question in his verbiage, the word ‘all’ – what would be my motivation? I simply wanted to know why the letter from Lincoln to Eliza Gurney (see all below), is not on their site – as Mr. Walker suggests to Ms. Judith Prince in her post – 'see all of Lincolns’ personal letters'.. Very interesting, I am urging that we (all TRUE Christians', that is) – pray for Mr. Walker that he comes to find TRUE knowledge that comes from the Almighty God – and HIS Son, Jesus Christ.
__________________________________________________________________
My answer emailed to Mr. Cliff Walker –08/21/08:
Thank you again Mr. Walker for taking the time to respond to my post / question, it is greatly appreciated. I respect your opinions and information, I also realize that time is indeed a precious commodity. However, I still do not understand how I was dishonest, nor do I see where my question was answered? I also do not find where I misquoted your post, as I truly ‘copied/pasted’ it directly from your site - your reply to Ms. Prince? Indeed, my question was in reference to the fact that I had searched your site and did not find the letter from Eliza Gurney that I referred to.
Respectfully, Stephanie R. Noble
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 08:18:54 -0700
>> From: positiveatheism@gmail.com
>> To: stephanierndos@hotmail.com Subject: Re: 'Don't Promote Lincoln as an Atheist - Judith Prince' – Question
Okay, I'll play the game, just this once: I did not emphasize the word *all.* (This was easy to see because when using Roman type, it is incorrect to use the underscore or the bold for emphasis: you used both.) That emphasis changed the entire meaning of the sentence. And it was this new, incorrect meaning of the word *all* that you quizzed me on. As I wrote it (and as its context demands), the word *all* is
incidental in that paragraph.
Also, you concatenated two or three smaller paragraphs into a single paragraph, likewise changing their meaning.
Cliff Walker
PositiveAtheism.org
It's often said that because
evolution happened in the past
there is no direct evidence for it.
That, of course, is nonsense.
It's rather like a detective coming
after the crime has been committed,
and working out what must have
happened by looking at the clues
that remain....
-- Richard Dawkins,
Interview by Gordy Slack
(April 28, 2005)
(By the way - for those who aren't familiar, the meaning of the word concatenate: In computer programming, concatenation is the operation of joining two character strings end to end. For example, the strings "foo" and "bar" may be concatenated to give "foobar". In programming languages, string concatenation is a binary operation usually accomplished by putting a concatenation operator between two strings (operands). – Which I most CERTAINLY DID NOT do – as Mr. Walker insinuates above. Again, I copied and pasted his verbiage exactly – I only underlined and emboldened the word ‘all’ to get to the crux of my question – which Mr. Walker NEVER answered…)
___________________________________________________________________________
On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Stephanie Noble
<stephanierndos@hotmail.com> wrote:
Changed their meaning? - In your eyes perhaps...
Yes, I was the one whom underlined and placed in bold font the word 'all', thus no changes to your verbiage were made - it was my intent to point out and ask about all of Lincoln's letters, per your site - that is. However, I made no alterations or changes to your verbiage other than underlining/bolding the font for the word - all.
Regardless, my intent was that I wanted your thoughts on Mr. Lincoln's personal letter to Ms. Eliza Gurney - that is all. It seems as though you
are avoiding that question, which I frankly do not understand. Again, I appreciate your time and your thought provoking replies.
Have a relaxing weekend Mr. Walker.
Sincerely & Respectfully
Stephanie R. Noble
______________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:18:10 -0700
From: positiveatheism@gmail.com
To: stephanierndos@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: 'Don't Promote Lincoln as an Atheist - Judith Prince' - Question
Changed their meaning? - In your eyes perhaps...
Mine is the final word when it comes to what I meant.
Like I said, GOOD BYE.
I cut you off for dishonesty four letters ago.
Please stop writing here.
Cliff Walker
PositiveAtheism.org
It's often said that because
evolution happened in the past
and we didn't see it happen,
there is no direct evidence for it.
That, of course, is nonsense.
It's rather like a detective coming
on the scene of a crime, obviously
after the crime has been committed,
and working out what must have
happened by looking at the clues
that remain....
-- Richard Dawkins,
Interview by Gordy Slack
(April 28, 2005)
(Again, where was my dishonesty??? I would like to ask the same of Mr. Walker, in fact – I would add to that question – his use of deception by intellectual terminology, - to be exact).
From: Stephanie Noble Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 6:58 PM
To: Positive Atheism Subject: RE: 'Don't Promote Lincoln as an Atheist - Judith Prince' - Question
It's funny how you are the only one who believes your word is final...
I feel so very sorry for you - as I was courteous and respectful to you and you are very rude and curt with me. I have a clear conscious in that I was completely honest in every single statement I have made.
Best wishes to you Sir - I truly have only the best hopes for you.
Sincerely & respectfully,
Stephanie R. Noble
*Note: This is the final email correspondence with Mr. Walker – self proclaimed atheist. Let us all Pray that God’s TRUTH finds Mr. Walker and he finds God as Creator of the universe and MASTER of his life! P.S. Don’t you just love the way he ends his emails with the most absurd statement by an obvious evolutionist – which is a theory only that has NOT been proven, - it takes more FAITH to be an atheist/evolutionist, than to believe in a CREATOR – and for anyone who doubts that see the following websites & research in more areas for yourself; http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/creation-vs-evolution-video.htm http://www.creation-evidence.com/ http://www.allaboutcreation.org/is-god-a-delusion-video.htm http://www.allaboutcreation.org/existence-of-god-video.htm
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